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Carlos Is an Asian at Heart
July 23, 2008 5:58 PM Subscribe

Why do Asian-American students achieve higher grades than Latino-American students? Despite the fact that the students come from the same socioeconomic background (median annual household incomes below $50,000 in working-class Los Angeles neighborhoods), Asian-American students disproportionately get better grades, attend AP courses, and go to college than their Latino-American counterparts. Students at Lincoln High School sit down for a frank discussion of why that is.
posted by jabberjaw (234 comments total) 22 users marked this as a favorite

1. Asians have higher IQs
2. Their parents push them like crazy, which may be a function of 1.
posted by plexi at 6:03 PM on July 23

effect and cause much, plexi?
posted by yort at 6:07 PM on July 23

These sound like great kids all around.

Claude Steele, who teaches psychology at Stanford, has a good partial answer for the achievement gap.

Also, we may want to avoid pat answers about IQs.
posted by ferdydurke at 6:12 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

At the risk of being un-pc I noticed the same thing when I looked at elementary school rankings in the Bay Area. If you look at the breakdown by race, students at all schools score (the is the CA API score) in groups correlated with their race - the Asian groups scores in the 900's, Whites in the 700-800s and Hispanic students in the 600-800s. So when you look at a school's overall score it's determined more by the ethnic makeup of the student body and less by and actual differential in teaching - white students tend to perform the same even in schools with a poor overall score for example. And the only schools with really high API scores are ones that have a nearly 100% asian student body (e.g. Cupertino). Once I got to that point I stopped looking at the test score data because I figured it wasn't going to tell me much about whether a given school would be right for my kids.

I have no explanation why this is the case, but it doesn't take someone with a PhD in statistics to see the correlation between race and academic achievement (well, standardized test achievement). The data is pretty straightforward at least in the gross manner it's presented.

As a side note, students whose parents have graduate degrees tend to get high scores, so I figure my kids don't even need to study. They can just cruise by on my degree alone.
posted by GuyZero at 6:14 PM on July 23

Diet perhaps is one influence? I wonder if corn (maize) consumption has anything to do with it. High fructise corn syrup seems to have some correlation with making Americans fatter and less motivated; I wonder if the prevalence of corn in the Latino diet has a similar effect.

Certainly, the relative abundance of cheap high-sugar, high-carbohydrate foods in the US plays havoc with the cultural habits of Latinos accustomed to greater scarcity -- if you're poor in a Guatemalan village, eating as many tortillas as you can is a necessary cultural adaptation. In the US, even on minimum wage you can get so much more, and the cultural habit of eating as much as you can turns into fat and super-sized health problems.
posted by orthogonality at 6:17 PM on July 23

I'd like to suggest that before we get into this much further that people clarify whether they're talking about genetics or culture.

I suspect there are little, if any, genetic factors improving the scores of asian students, and I suspect there are some fairly major cultural factors that are doing so.
posted by Ryvar at 6:19 PM on July 23 [11 favorites]

Gosh, race or culture. Hm.
posted by maxwelton at 6:19 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

Or what Ryvar said.
posted by maxwelton at 6:20 PM on July 23

I work late night in a University Engineering Complex. When I trot down to the breakroom at 3:00 in the morning, I mostly see Asian students sitting behind piles of books.
posted by RavinDave at 6:20 PM on July 23

Asian parents are more likely to pressure their children to excel academically, the students agreed.

wow. took the down-zelled times (see what I did there? so clever. I stole it, too!) only 800 words to state the obvious.
posted by krautland at 6:24 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

When I was in college, I interviewed a professor for the student newspaper. He was one of three professors on campus that had taught at the school non-stop since the school's first class in the early 1950s.

I asked him the usual questions about what the school was like in those days, how it had grown and changed. I turned to the question of the students, and he compared/contrasted students from the various decades.

One thing, though, hadn't changed at all, he said. In an area of the country (Southern California) that had always had a huge Hispanic population, Hispanic students were still the outliers within their own communities. They made up 60-70 percent of the general population of the county, and only 10 percent of the school's population. Moreover, many were regarded almost as pariahs for attending college.

He said one student in that first class in the 50s asked that the professor to never call his house, because his parents didn't know he was going to college, and if they did know, they would make him quit. Thirty years later, another student asked him essentially the same thing, not that his family would make him quit, but that it was an uncomfortable subject at home.

So, if you ask me, why do Asian-American students achieve higher grades than Latino-American students ... it's largely because their families simply ask them to.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:25 PM on July 23 [10 favorites]

As an Asian from the Asian education system, it's more about parents, teachers, and the rest of society pushing them, than anything to do with their IQ. Often they're just "school smart" but not "life smart" - they complete tests well but have no idea how to function in the real world outside school because there isn't something concise to study or someone to spoonfeed them with information. They never develop skills in learning, critical thinking, and creativity - basically, they're not academically independent.
posted by divabat at 6:27 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

"They only start paying attention if I don't do well," said Karen Chu, 15, whose parents emigrated from Vietnam. "They don't reward me for getting straight A's. I don't get anything for that. But if I get a B, they're like, 'What's this?' "

Yep, I'm pretty sure this is your answer. It's not that complicated.
I still get annoyed when I think of my parents forcing me to read SAT preparation books... in 5th grade.
posted by naju at 6:29 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

Ryvar writes "I suspect there are little, if any, genetic factors improving the scores of asian students, and I suspect there are some fairly major cultural factors that are doing so."

I suspect it's both, thought I know that suggesting race influences IQ is terribly unfashionable. But suspecting is a poor substitute for well-designed empirical studies.

Among Africans from malarial regions, the sickle-cell mutation isn't bred out of the population, even though having both parents heterozygous for the mutation means on average one out of every four children will die of the disease. But heterozygotes gain a resistance to malaria ,the benefit of which (in living to have additional children) equals the cost of losing one child in four.

Among Ashkenazi Jews, the genes for Tay Sachs and cystic fibrosis are also not bred out of the population. So what's the offsetting benefit? Possibly greater intelligence.
posted by orthogonality at 6:30 PM on July 23 [3 favorites]

Is there any reason to think that the Asian students aren't genetically better equipped for academic study? Any actual evidence for or against? Any reasonable person would want all human populations to be equal in this regard, but is there solid evidence somewhere that this is the case?
posted by nowonmai at 6:31 PM on July 23

I was expecting some pseudo racist garbage, but this article was a wonderful relief. It's really great to see that these kids know exactly the reasons for the discrepancies.

It's also good that, besides a weird blip at the beginning of the comments, MeFites seem to get it to. (Yes, culture can explain it. Yes, it really can. I know, I know, we all thought intelligence was genetic, but across human differences, for the most part, it really is a matter of upbringing.)
posted by Alex404 at 6:33 PM on July 23

... it's largely because their families simply ask them to.

Ask? No. Demand.
posted by tkchrist at 6:35 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

To clarify:

Acceptable stereotype: Asians perform better because their parents push them harder.
Unacceptable stereotype: Asians perform better because they are genetically predisposed towards higher intelligence.

Why is one stereotype more acceptable than another? I don't know. I do know that if you even suggest that it's worth investigating whether race plays a role in intelligence, you will be decried as a bigot. It seems incredibly close minded to say that it's not possible genetics play a role here.
posted by christonabike at 6:35 PM on July 23 [5 favorites]

If we're comparing Chinese Vietnamese immigrants to El Norte immigrants, the differences may not even be that cultural.

The Chinese were already a minority in Vietnam, a country that had suffered under 30 years of civil war (not to forget 50 years of brutal French and Japanese occupations), and generally strived for middle class occupations, as merchants etc. To get here, for most of them, required buying the services of a boat, packing your entire life & family onto it, and casting off eastwards in the hope of being intercepted by a commercial ship, then spending months if not years in a crowded refugee camp in Hong Kong until US immigration got to your case.

Once here, the Chinese Vietnamese are still a minority but have the familial history and connections for to succeed in their middle class expectations.

Race, culture -- let's not forget family.

“Every happy family is the same, but unhappy families are all different.”
posted by yort at 6:40 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

it's appropriate that this discussion is occuring in a high school as that's precisely where it belongs.
posted by kitchenrat at 6:42 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

My "disaster thread" senses are tingling.
posted by Avenger at 6:43 PM on July 23 [3 favorites]

All you people claiming it's something genetic seem to forget that there's more than one type of "Asian". India mean anything to you? Indonesia? Uzbekistan? Would Chinese, Japanese, and Korean people all be "the same"?

While many things differ across these varied Asian cultures, one thing that's common is the importance of education. It's something that a lot of Asian philosophy and religion centres on - the importance of learning more and doing well.

In one way it is a class marker: you wouldn't often see schoolkids in Asia working (unlike those in Western societies that take part-time or summer jobs) because the expectation is to spend all your time studying. Even extra-curricular activities are frowned upon in the exam years. If you are working when you're meant to be studying, it's usually an indication that your family is poor - and, by extension, will never aspire to leave the lower working class.

You can't afford extra tuition (usually populated by middle-class kids who already know the information but want the extra boost from A2 to A1 because of parental expectation), you probably still can't afford school even though it's "free", and you can't afford to do anything else but work to make a living. Problem is, because you can't afford to do all that, you won't get the required papers that allow you to get a better job and earn more money and make a more comfortable living. The Ivory Tower is not an insult - it's an aspiration.

What I notice with Asian migrant families is that there's a lot of "your grandfather sacrificed so much to come to this country and make sure you are not poor! Do you want to disappoint him?! NO! So study!". Education is seen as the great entryway to a better life. Filial piety is strong. Do what your parents say - or risk getting disowned. This is tied to a very materialistic view of life - success is determined by how much money you have, or how prestigious your job title is. That was what determined your class and social structure in the "old country" (well, even now really) and that's how you're meant to make a better life to support your family like they supported you.

I've read a lot of books and seen movies where some non-Asian families don't like the idea of their children aspiring for college, "they won't be good enough anyway". You'll hardly, if ever, see this mindset in Asian families, and it puzzled me a lot when I read it. Formal education is the ticket to everything - so why not succeed?

The book Doing School by Denise Clark Pope of Stanford has a case study on an Asian student that was pressured by her family and by society to do every extracurricular and take every AP available. Why? So that she will go to Harvard. Nothing else is good enough, no matter what she herself wanted. It became such a strong competition that she kept her volunteering work at a hospital a secret from her friends - in fear that her friends would start doing it too and make her less special in Harvard's eyes. Her health suffered majorly, and she was eating crap - but it was all apparently worth it (to her) to attain this success. Good grades = Harvard = great job = more money = better life.
posted by divabat at 6:50 PM on July 23 [20 favorites]

This post needs more tags.
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:56 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

If you come up with a way to measure intelligence that isn't affected at all by cultural factors, then you can look for your genetic race/intelligence link.
Even then though, what possible benefit could be gained from such a study? I understand the purely academic curiosity, but you must realize the results of such a study would only be used for evil.
posted by rocket88 at 6:57 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

Why is one stereotype more acceptable than another?

Because the racial argument in the absence of overwhelmingly convincing data support is unproductive to the larger question of how we can get all students to achieve their potentials.

It seems incredibly close minded to say that it's not possible genetics play a role here

To treat people with the individual dignity they deserve we should strive to reduce prejudice and pernicious bigotry.

Now, I am not so PC perfect that I deny that the genetics of IQ distribution might, in fact, be a factor, but given the overwhelming effects that familial, community, cultural, economic, etc factors exert I just don't see much "there" there in asserting that some collections of millions of people might be stupider than the average thanks to their genes.

(I have no problem with the opposite assertion that some people may be smarter than the average thanks to their genes since it's easier to test for that)
posted by yort at 6:57 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

I remember an asian kid in my 5th grade class bring said class to a complete standstill by sobbing uncontrollably for a good 15 minutes after being told he had just earned his first detention, albeit for doing his homework wrong (FYI the entire class had done likewise and earned the same punishment). In between sobs he blubbered about how his parents would most assuredly wail on him with a feather duster once notification of this double whammy of detention/bad homework got to them.

Also, I am selling lawnchairs and popcorn here at stall #77. Mention this thread for a discount.
posted by nudar at 6:59 PM on July 23

I just noticed an apparent contradiction in my earlier comment. I mention that extra-curriculars are frowned upon as they get in the way of study, but then mention the Asian girl who did everything imaginable to get into Harvard.

Schools around here (I was brought up in Malaysia) only use academics as a measure of suitability for higher education, and often for jobs. The concept of looking beyond a person's grades or transcripts are relatively new here, and mainly confined at non-traditional industries or institutions (i.e. creative, international, etc). Entrepreneurship is also looked at strangely unless you become a big business tycoon earning millions. If you bring up the "As don't matter that much!" argument (which I do all the time), you get a lot of opposition from people going "As are the only way you'll get into university! As are the only way you'll get a job!" even if a lot of evidence exists to refute that.

In places like America, grades aren't the only deciding factor. Extra-curriculars often make the difference, so there's more pressure to get involved in anything just for the sake of making your resume longer. Even then you're expected to take the hardest classes and score all As. In this sense, it's less about extra-curriculars/no extra-curriculars and more about doing whatever it takes to get into Prestigious Top University.
posted by divabat at 7:05 PM on July 23

nudar: There are kids in Malaysia killing themselves for getting a single D in exams. Honestly, between the suicide and the societal grilling they'll get for a lot of their life (which led to the suicidal thoughts), I don't know what's worse.
posted by divabat at 7:06 PM on July 23

Why is one stereotype more acceptable than another?

Because the conception of race based on genetics is intellectually vacuous. It has been conclusively shown that genetic differences between individuals trump differences between racial groups. So in terms of genetics, race does not even really exist.
posted by AceRock at 7:06 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

Students at the school I teach at call any mark below 80 an Asian fail.
posted by trigger at 7:09 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

I don't know what's worse.
posted by divabat

Agreed. I didn't post that anecdote to redicule that kid. I posted it because I remember I was thanking jeebus my parents weren't that nuts.
posted by nudar at 7:13 PM on July 23

Why is one stereotype more acceptable than another?

One race-based stereotype is okay if it soothes guilty feelings about other race-based stereotypes.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:14 PM on July 23

Why is one stereotype more acceptable than another? I don't know.

Unless you just arrived from space, I'm pretty sure you do know. In the event that you are from space - I apologize for assuming that you were being disingenuous, and am sorry to have the duty to inform you that - far from being something that it hasn't occurred to anyone to study or think about - humans are sort of just now coming away from the tendency to attribute everything to race. There's a long and ugly history of that sort of thing, actually.
posted by moxiedoll at 7:16 PM on July 23 [6 favorites]

Yes it is much less insulting to my sense of human dignity and equality to believe that all people of a given ethnicity have the same attitude towards a particular pursuit rather than believing that all people of a given ethnicity happen to have, through chance historical genetic events, an enhanced propensity for success in a given activity.

Compare:
(a) Asians achieve highly in math because all asian parents choose to ride their children until they're freshmen at Harvard.
(b) Asians achieve highly in math because of a chance higher proportion of a given gene or set of genes that confers relatively enhanced visuospatial cognition in asian populations.
posted by norabarnacl3 at 7:16 PM on July 23

A bit off topic but I am reminded that Kurt Vonnegut's son became (after a troubled early life) a doctor and was on the admissions board for medical school at Harvard. He said that ilf the group;were really honest in admissions, most of those admitted--some 9-0 percent--would be Asian.

My son taught English in Korea for a few years and told me that young students there were great at math but in learning were not allowed to use calculators.

I won't attempt to enter the fray about Nature and Nurture and what parents want etc but it might be worth exploring what family life is like in a variety of cultures. In the Black community, huge number of out-of-wedlock children and single family homes; in Hispanic homes, may be even worse. Asian homes? Now there may be some connection in this cross-cultural study.
posted by Postroad at 7:22 PM on July 23

divabat's characterisation of Asian students rings very true from my experience of high school & university.

Anectodally, I was constantly amazed that in my Masters course, I was one of only about two or three white Australians in any class (of 30-40 students) that I took. The overwhelming majority were Asians or subcontinentals.

(admittedly, a proportion were only enrolled for migration purposes - spend long enough as a student & you can claim residency status, then eventually citizenship. Private "English language colleges" do very well out of this business)

In part, I put this down to a generational mentality related to immigration. The first generation of immigrants (those born overseas) struggle to build a better life for their kids, often working in manual jobs, and far below their qualifications (if educated).

Their kids (the second generation) are pushed hard & strive to succeed in some kind of professional or business field.

I believe that the rot sets in with the third & subsequent generations. Born into a privileged society & distanced enough from the hardships back in the mother country, these are the generations that tend to follow their interests rather than strict financial success, and end up slacking off, travelling the world, pursuing liberal arts degrees or artistic careers, working for nonprofits or charities, and so on.

As a grandchild of European refugees, this is where I fit into that model, but It should be quite soon that the more recent Asian migrants & refugees reach the generational level where they become lazy, hedonistic Aussies like the rest of us, where the good life is something you're born with and take for granted, not something you need to strive particularly hard for.

(of course, this goes no way towards explaining the supposed Asian v Latino thing, but we don't really have Latinos - in the American sense - here in any significant numbers, so I won't comment)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:22 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

Great article, thanks for the FPP.

Have we magically returned to the late 1800s? The defenses of race-based intelligence here are really weird to read -- surely some of this is tongue in cheek, no?

Purely anecdotally, I have known a bunch of Asian and Asian-American kids who were very glumly pursuing science- and medical-based careers under intense family pressure, despite their desire to follow a very different direction. It's a phenomenon that transcends any one culture, obviously (the same thing happened to my uncle forty years ago, for example); the family pressure, though, is so overt and so intense in some cases that it is really tough on the poor kids.
posted by Forktine at 7:23 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

My dad came over from Japan after college. He hated Japan and the culture there and didn't even go back to visit for 25 years. He did about all he could to drop Japanese culture and be as American as possible. He changed his name from Katsuhiko to Tony. Tony!

He also made me study really hard and I went to Harvard.

I think it's genetic, but not that we're genetically smarter. Asians are relatively small people, and all look the same. We can't get ahead with our strength or our looks, so we use our brains to get ahead in life.
posted by snofoam at 7:23 PM on July 23

maybe something like....
"Why there so many Jewish doctors? Because there a so many Jewish mothers"
posted by robbyrobs at 7:28 PM on July 23

Asians are relatively small people, and all look the same. We can't get ahead with our strength or our looks, so we use our brains to get ahead in life.

Wait, what?

WHAT

NO WAIT STOP

YOU STOP THAT RIGHT NOW
posted by Avenger at 7:30 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

I don't care what races you all are. You're all idiots.

It's like you all said, "Hmm, how can we best show our ignorance about the science of intelligence, genetics, and show that we didn't read the article?"
posted by Eideteker at 7:39 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

(You're not all idiots. Those of you who are not idiots know who you are. Those of you who are idiots think you know who you are, but you're wrong, because you're idiots.)
posted by Eideteker at 7:40 PM on July 23 [3 favorites]

Dude went to harvard, man. Cut him some slack.
posted by zpousman at 7:43 PM on July 23

A bit off topic but I am reminded that Kurt Vonnegut's son became (after a troubled early life) a doctor and was on the admissions board for medical school at Harvard. He said that ilf the group;were really honest in admissions, most of those admitted--some 9-0 percent--would be Asian.

Totally off topic (although relevant in terms of parental expectations of their children), but this reminded me of an old interview with Vonnegut:

Vonnegut said he was disappointed in his children only because ''they aren't more urban people. I'd hoped they would get interested in the problems of the cities. But I'd made sort of a naive mistake. I'd raised them in the country so they didn't know anything about the city.

''A couple of them are starting to get the idea and become urban. But one is a goat farmer in Jamaica, and is probably the happiest of the bunch, and I admire his doing this.''
posted by Forktine at 7:43 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

On the topic od this Asian stereotype - See also: Ricky from We Can be Heroes
posted by nudar at 7:43 PM on July 23

We can't get ahead with our strength or our looks, so we use our brains to get ahead in life.

But you all know martial arts, which would pave the way for success through fear.
posted by jonmc at 7:47 PM on July 23

It doesn't surprise me at all that Asian-Americans do well. Those Israelis are smart cookies.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:50 PM on July 23

So in terms of genetics, race does not even really exist.

This is misleading, though. Race might not exist but distinct ethnic groups do. Are you going to deny that a person in an ethnic group known as "Ashkenazi Jewish" is more likely to have Tay-Sachs than a random person? That people of black African descent are more likely to have sickle-cell anemia?
posted by Justinian at 7:57 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

and African Immigrants do so well—better than Asian-American students, statistically. I'm all ears.

Cite? I'm not denying it, I've just never heard that before.
posted by Justinian at 7:58 PM on July 23

A useful link that may be good reading for everyone here is wikipedia's race and intelligence page.
posted by sien at 8:03 PM on July 23

Both race and culture are pretty undermining to the individual but if metafilter is supposedly open minded and not very racist and open society is very racist, we all ought to join some kind of an Asian Supremacy group. I can't believe I didn't read a single comment about the downsides to positive stereotypes. Asia's best and brightest are the people that moved to other countries; perhaps that skewed the sample somewhat as well...Suffice to say, jumping to either racist or culturalist conclusions based on something that is inherently complex and impossibly hurtful to non-conformist is counterproductive but it seems to be happening here on metafilter.

You can help to stop the spread of stereotypes and generalizations right here and now.
posted by christhelongtimelurker at 8:05 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

here's my three part proof and prediction:

1. Brian Eno. Not asian. Also, not strong and not strikingly handsome. He did lots of great stuff. Smart stuff. Stuff too smart to be commercially successful, but later he made a killing producing U2 records. Relevance of this part? Minimal.

2. Early mammals. They were small, nondescript creatures. Dinosaurs were big-ass animals with horns and weird shit, but small brains. Look where mammals are now.

3. In 1971, McDonald's Japan President Den Fujita declared: "The reason Japanese people are so short and have yellow skins is because they have eaten nothing but fish and rice for two thousand years." Going further, he says: "If we eat McDonald's hamburgers and potatoes for a thousand years we will become taller, our skin become white, and our hair blonde."

Asians will outsmart the other races, then "McDonald's-ize" to become big and sexy and eventually dominate the world. It happened with mammals and Brian Eno, it will happen with asians.
posted by snofoam at 8:05 PM on July 23 [15 favorites]

Asians will outsmart the other races, then "McDonald's-ize" to become big and sexy and eventually dominate the world. It happened with mammals and Brian Eno, it will happen with asians.

Just look at Godzilla, man.
posted by jonmc at 8:07 PM on July 23

Race might not exist but distinct ethnic groups do. Are you going to deny that a person in an ethnic group known as "Ashkenazi Jewish" is more likely to have Tay-Sachs than a random person? That people of black African descent are more likely to have sickle-cell anemia?

Those statements don't necessarily follow, though. There are traits that are more pronounced on the whole in groups that we can identify - but that doesn't mean that "race" exists. People of northern European extraction are more likely to develop multiple sclerosis than people from anywhere else in the world - but that doesn't mean that "northern European" is a distinct ethnicity - any more than Italians, who are more likely than Swedes to have dark hair and brown eyes, constitute a distinct ethnic group.
posted by moxiedoll at 8:08 PM on July 23

any more than Italians, who are more likely than Swedes to have dark hair and brown eyes, constitute a distinct ethnic group.

the proof is in the meatballs.
posted by jonmc at 8:10 PM on July 23

Again, I would go back to cultural factors. I note the comment that there are many Jewish doctors because there are many Jewish mothers. But why do Jewish mothers want their sons to be doctors?
And no. More complicated than it being a fine profession. Jews were highly regarded as doctors because like Arabs they began to experiment on the body whereas Catholic dogma forbid this.
Jewish families preferred sons to become rabbis. In America, under assimilation, the Jews, still a people of the book, became doctors and lawyers. Interestingly, many became academics but were unable to go into administration at universities. That all has changed of course, and so too, Italians have followed this path into medicine, lawyers, academics, and yes, administrators. Jews relished books, given biblical explication early on, and transitioned into writing and academia. Blacks by contrast were forbidden to learn to read and write under most state laws during days of slavery.

I am puzzled why issues such as broken homes, outof-wedlock children etc are so seldom studied by exploring historic cultural roots. The Nazis hated the number of Jews in govt and asserted a snake-like duplicity on their part, and yet the same Nazis hated the gypsies, a people with no jobs, mostly. Why? The gypsies were rootless and the Germans touted blood and soil. The Jews fell into this grouping too: they were a wandering tribe with no real roots in Germany. European nations also used this nonsense and booted Jews out of Spain, England and France.
posted by Postroad at 8:10 PM on July 23

norabarnacl3: come to Malaysia and you will see situation (a) true on a NATIONAL level. When the Government will only give overseas scholarships to "top" (read: Oxbridge/Ivy) universities, when only students who go there get the front page of newspapers, when just adding the word "Harvard" could affect your pay scale immensely...why NOT the pressure?
posted by divabat at 8:11 PM on July 23

It's got fuck-all to do with race and everything to do with culture, culture, culture.

There will always be exceptions, but in a large enough sample, children will generally live up to, or down to, the expectations of their families and peer groups.
posted by chimaera at 8:11 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

Justinian: Here you go.

NYT, Lewis Mumford Center analysis of the 2000 Census, SF Chronicle, and depending on how skeptical you feel, you can check out Wikipedia's article on the subject.
posted by Weebot at 8:12 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

why can't we all just get along
posted by doogyrev at 8:14 PM on July 23

Also, there are way too many serious discussions about why people think asians are so smart, and way too few about why people think asian chicks are so hot. Can we just accept that we're at a dead end on the asians=smart debate and spend our energy trying to figure out the hot asian chicks conundrum?
posted by snofoam at 8:15 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

the proof is in the meatballs.

Each to their own. I prefer to think that the proof is in the putana.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:15 PM on July 23

My son taught English in Korea for a few years and told me that young students there were great at math but in learning were not allowed to use calculators.

So? You become great at math by learning about math very in depth. Calculators are tools to aid in the problem-solving process after you become great at math. I'm not seeing what is so unusual about what your son observed in Korea.

In any case, my family came to the US from Greece, and for a little bit I was taking a class in Greece, and my teacher explained the culture like this: each small village has a doctor, a teacher, a priest, and a policeman. So parents push their children to be doctors, teachers, priests, and policemen.

What it comes down to is what all the parents view "success" to mean for their children. For some parents, it means "to work and have a steady job." For other parents it means "be like the most respected person in our old hometown." For others it means "join the next rung in the social class system." Depending on the parents' ambition for their children, they're going to raise them differently and have different academic expectations and demands for them.
posted by deanc at 8:16 PM on July 23 [3 favorites]

Weebot: Thanks!
posted by Justinian at 8:17 PM on July 23

Asia's best and brightest are the people that moved to other countries; perhaps that skewed the sample somewhat as well.

Ding! I can't believe enough people haven't recognized the effects of brain drain. People from all over the world (and Asia in particular) claw and fight and struggle to get into this country, since immigration is so tough here, and admission requires an education, money, or both. (A significant portion of Latin Americans have a less difficult battle to cross the border.)

So in a way it's both genetic and cultural. It's genetic because the people who do make it over here are likely genetically superior in intelligence compared to the countrymen they left behind. In addition, Asian cultures have a strong sense of education as the path to enlightenment.

Of course, reverse brain drain (coming here to the US for a great education and then going back to home country) is a real phenomenon as well, and is certainly apparent in the Chinese and Indian communities.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:20 PM on July 23 [3 favorites]

Oh, and seconding delmoi on his analysis of the earlier corn diet comment. The original corn diet comment was really about as stupid as the thing I quoted about Japanese people eating McDonald's hamburgers and becoming tall and blonde. Let's not blame tacos.
posted by snofoam at 8:21 PM on July 23

By the way, when people talk about the success of Asians in the U.S. it's important to remember that many of the Asians that came over here were at the top of their society or already middle class.

Look at the situation with the Hmong, who actually have pretty low academic achievement, from what I recall. There's probably not much genetic difference between them and other south east Asians, but they didn't have the same sort of academic culture, etc.
posted by delmoi at 8:22 PM on July 23

I prefer to think that the proof is in the putana.

or in this case, puttanesca.
posted by jonmc at 8:24 PM on July 23

I eat plenty of tacos and ingest entirely more high-fructose corn syrup. I also hold a physical science degree from a highly regarded institution. Re: your corn theory -- I refute it thus!
posted by chimaera at 8:24 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

Japanese people eating McDonald's hamburgers and becoming tall

Uh-oh. this means that sushi-eating Americans are going to shrink.
posted by jonmc at 8:25 PM on July 23

That should read "entirely more high-fructose corn syrup than I probably should."
posted by chimaera at 8:25 PM on July 23

Also, regarding the idea that immigrants are genetically more intelligent than the folks that don't get the gumption to go somewhere better. I think there's a whole scientific concept of falling back to the mean. Like, if you have a 7 foot kid, their kids are probably not going to be 8 ft tall, but they're likely to be back towards normal height. Even if there is genetic superiority in intelligence in some individuals, like other attributes it probably is largely dropped the next generation. Someone surely knows the name for this, but I can't think of it right now.
posted by snofoam at 8:26 PM on July 23

So, ehm, I wonder if anybody is familiar with the Model Minority Stereotype.
posted by Comrade_robot at 8:28 PM on July 23

Someone surely knows the name for this, but I can't think of it right now.

Regression Toward the Mean.
posted by deanc at 8:29 PM on July 23

A useful link that may be good reading for everyone here is wikipedia's race and intelligence page.

Yeah, because what could be a better way to learn about race and intelligence then a page written by random people on the internet obsessed with race and intelligence.
posted by delmoi at 8:29 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

Compare:
(a) Asians achieve highly in math because all asian parents choose to ride their children until they're freshmen at Harvard.
(b) Asians achieve highly in math because of a chance higher proportion of a given gene or set of genes that confers relatively enhanced visuospatial cognition in asian populations.

The problem with that comparison is that we actually have lots of evidence that (a) might be true, (the history of Confucian cultures emphasizing education and sociological evidence that shows modern Asian* familes tend to also emphasize education) and we have zero evidence that anything like (b) would be true. Why people here keep giving both hypothesis equal weight is baffling.

* I hate using the word "Asian" to refer to vastly different ethnic groups who compromise about 2/3rds of the earth's population, but it seems like fighting a losing battle against it at least in the states. It's even more annoying that "Asian" in Britain is usually assumed to be someone from the Indian Subcontinent, while in the states it is usually assumed to be someone who is East Asian.
posted by afu at 8:32 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

Acceptable stereotype: Asians perform better because their parents push them harder.
Unacceptable stereotype: Asians perform better because they are genetically predisposed towards higher intelligence.

Why is one stereotype more acceptable than another? I don't know.

Wow, it must be tough going through life with such a low IQ.

I do know that if you even suggest that it's worth investigating whether race plays a role in intelligence, you will be decried as a bigot.

Because you would actually be a bigot! Funny how that works.
posted by delmoi at 8:34 PM on July 23

Regression Toward the Mean

See. I'm psychic. I knew someone knew what it was called.

Doesn't that principle kind of undercut the idea of genetically superior asian intellect? Unless one assumes that asians are genetically different enough to have a different mean intelligence. In America, asians are also breeding with other races at much higher rates than any other ethnic group. (Although, to be fair, there's less asians, so there are more potential mates of other races.) This trend should also erase any genetic differences relatively quickly. (Not that there are genetic differences in intelligence to erase.)
posted by snofoam at 8:35 PM on July 23

"If we eat McDonald's hamburgers and potatoes for a thousand years we will

explode in a big bang that will cause its very own grease universe"
posted by pyramid termite at 8:36 PM on July 23

The original corn diet comment was really about as stupid as the thing I quoted about Japanese people eating McDonald's hamburgers and becoming tall and blonde.

Well, there's plenty of empirical evidence that the Japanese have been growing taller & taller, as more western food has crept into their diet in the latter part of this century* (especially, more red meat & other animal proteins). Apart from the becoming whiter & blonder part, it's a true enough observation.

The corn comment was stupid more because HFCS is a refined sugar, quite unlike the complex carbohydrates provided by the ground corn in tortillas. Sugar spikes & lows are a fair enough explanation for performing beneath one's potential.

* You can see the same gradual height increase in Western societies, too. For example, military records show that the average WW1 soldier was something around 5'6" tall
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:37 PM on July 23

Well, there's plenty of empirical evidence that the Japanese have been growing taller & taller, as more western food has crept into their diet in the latter part of this century*

Woah woah woah. It has nothing to do with "western foods" it has to do with not living in a poor, war-torn society. But yes Japanese have been getting taller, which actually illustrates how even something like height is determined as much by environment then by genetics.
posted by delmoi at 8:42 PM on July 23

Based on my experiences as an undergraduate at a very competitive university, I have to agree with the "Asians-perform-better-academically-because-their-parents-push-them-harder" camp. During undergrad, I had many Asian friends, and all of them, at one point or another, remarked on their difficult relationship with their parents.

One summer I briefly lived with a very quirky but very sweet girl who needed an extra roommate to help with the rent. She was "Chinese" (I always feel weird describing people as Chinese who are American as far as I'm concerned, but there you go. Also, for the record, I am white). I lived in the "office" and slept on a futon mattress next to the phone. Nearly every day I lived there, I was woken up by the grating, heavily accented voice of my roommate's mother (who, for the record, born in China) barking into the answering machine: "LILY! THIS IS YOUR MOTHER. ARE YOU STUDYING FOR MCATS. IT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT YOU STUDY FOR MCATS. IT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOUR FUTURE, LILY." Variants on this theme continued for at least a couple of minutes and then (mercifully) ceased.

Unfortunately, Lily was not studying for the MCAT. She had stopped going to class and was, at that time, working full-time as a waitress to support a serious drug habit. I honestly believe that her addiction was at least in part rooted in the guilt that she felt for not living up to her family's expectations. But anyways. One day her mother came to visit. During this time, I had to stay out of the apartment because, according to Lily, she was not allowed to have roommates or friends during the pre-MCAT period, during which she was supposed to be studying 24/7. I did my best to avoid her mother, but one day she and Lily came in and caught me eating lunch. I quickly concocted a lie that I just came over there to eat between classes on campus, but her mother, looking at me straight in the eyes, declared Lily had TO STUDY FOR MCATS AND WHEN THE TEST IS OVER, THEN SHE HAVE TIME TO BE WITH AMERICAN FRIENDS AND (glancing at the ravioli I was eating) EAT AMERICAN FOOD. She berated me for twenty minutes at least. All the while I nodded like a maniac. Lily was behind her mother's back, a look of despair on her face, pulling at her hair.

After that visit, her drug problem got considerably worse. It got to the point that she was smoking crack in the bathroom while I was taking a bath (her boyfriend also lived with us, and she was doing her best to hide her habit from him). By the end of the summer, she was rail-thin. I did my best to be there for her, but I had no experience in dealing with drug addiction and honestly, I was relieved when I moved out at the end of the summer to spend the semester abroad.

Granted, this is somewhat of an extreme story (and I apologize if the way I wrote the mother's dialogue seems offensive, but trust me, her words made a deep impression on me, and that is exactly how she talked). But I have never, ever witnessed such pressure coming from a parent, before or since: her desire for her daughter to succeed was so intense that she didn't even notice that her child was unraveling before their eyes. While I am sure that it is possible for a parent from any background to act this way, it was a complete shock for me.

At the very least, this story has a happy ending: Lily cleaned up, took the MCAT, and--you guessed it--went to medical school.
posted by duvatney at 8:42 PM on July 23 [19 favorites]

I always find it funny (funny strange, not funny ha-ha) that people who claim Asians are genetically smarter than whites will not say the same thing about Jews if they can help it. Because, you know, it's not kosher (ha-ha) to make any racial claims about Jews. Because of, you know, that whole Holocaust thing.

Asian kids are better at science and math and everything else for the reason Jewish kids are better at science and math and everything else -- their parents beat it into them.

Fun thing I read once: Jewish culture celebrates education because the Jewish religion places an emphasis on Torah study as a pillar of the religion (in fact, it's one of the hundreds of Jewish religious commandments). Now, you can't very well study the Torah unless you can read ...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:47 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

If we're going to even entertain the ridiculous notion that asians are genetically smarter than other races, can we also just entertain the notion that because asians have squinty eyes, they have to extrapolate things outside their squinty field of vision and therefore develop superior conceptual thinking skills? 'Cause those things are about equally sensible as far as I'm concerned. If possible, we can entertain these notions while totally ignoring the fact that bullshit theories about the genetics of intelligence have been used to justify slavery, racism, etc.

It's pretty crazy that in our american dream, pull yourself up from your bootstraps society people can for even one second get away with this "maybe there's genetics" bullshit. If anything, it goes to show that the white majority still has a significant influence on discourse in this country. The academic achievements of asians versus hispanics or blacks are just a diversion. The real issue is, how can someone do better than white folks, and how can we justify keeping them from reaping the full dividends of their hard work.

The exact same thing happened in the mid-20th century when there was a huge panic about how many jews were getting into ivy league schools.
posted by snofoam at 8:53 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

At the very least, this story has a happy ending: Lily cleaned up, took the MCAT, and--you guessed it--went to medical school.

Wow, that's good. Because that story was super-depressing man.
posted by delmoi at 9:01 PM on July 23

It's funny stridently Divabat reminds us of Asian etnic diversity, but then quickly slips into broad characterizations and gross generalities. The extreme emphasis on education is certainly a characteristic of the Confucian-based East Asian cultures, and with them the Chinese diaspora around the world. But I don't think it's true of many of the other cultures in Asia. Are the ethnic Malays this way? I know in Thailand the Thai-Chinese are certainly very education focused, but the ethnic Thais, Lao, Mon, Khmer are not, at least not nearly to the same degree. And of course there all the many hill tribes who don't bother sending their children to school at all. So this idea of a broad Asian focus on education is silly. It's a Confucian thing, not necessarily Asian.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 9:08 PM on July 23

I asked this before, but no one answered.

If Hispanics are genetically stupider than white people, then are the Spanish genetically stupider than, say the Polish?
posted by dirigibleman at 9:11 PM on July 23

WHAT!?

There are hoards - hoards - of slacker remedial Asians. Some even come from families who give/gave a shit (but of course, many are from families who don't).
posted by porpoise at 9:11 PM on July 23

If Hispanics are genetically stupider than white people, then are the Spanish genetically stupider than, say the Polish?

And if so, where does this leave Tasmanians?
posted by turgid dahlia at 9:12 PM on July 23

I don't want to enter the racial discussion because the Malcolm Gladwell article near the top does a good job of showing what bullshit that is.

I don't want to enter the cultural discussion because I'm neither Latino nor Aisan, though what those kids were saying rings pretty true to my observed experience.

I do know that expectations from teachers makes a huge difference, though, from having benefitted from it greatly myself.

Now, I'm a very smart guy, not to toot my own horn too much, but very lazy as well. I was always top of my class in elementary school, where being a grade level or two above your peers makes all the difference in the world. In Junior High, where they start actually expecting some degree of work from you, I started to flounder a lot. I couldn't get used to the workload.

I pulled myself out of the hole, not by learning how to work harder, but by learning how to charmm the teachers into believing that I was above all of the other students. It worked. The teachers would smile as they let me blatantly skipped their classes, and would make a point of bumping my grades up to "what I deserved" in their minds. Undergrad was much of the same, though I didn't try as hard because it was film school and grades didn't mean anything.

Now I'm in law school, and though my LSAT's were 99th percentile, I'm at the bottom of my class. The very bottom. I believe this is because the grading in law school is blind, and none of my previous techniques for making a professor think I deserve better than I've gotten can work anymore. I've finally gotten what my study habits earn, and it sucks, but well, I've earned it.

Still, most of the Latino kids who aren't expected to be doing well will never have the chance that I have now, because of early discrimination, no matter how unconscious or subtle. The Latinos in my law school class are straight-up kicking my ass, though, and part of me thinks it's because of their determination in spite of expectations that's carrying them through it.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:13 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

Yes it is much less insulting to my sense of human dignity and equality to believe that all people of a given ethnicity have the same attitude towards a particular pursuit rather than believing that all people of a given ethnicity happen to have, through chance historical genetic events, an enhanced propensity for success in a given activity.

Taking the word 'ethnicity' as synonymous with 'culture' in your comment causes me to wonder what your definition of culture is. How is it insulting to ascribe a value to a culture (or group of cultures), when culture is defined in terms of values? Your reactionary argument for equivalency doesn't seem to stand up to the rather plausible explanations of Asian-American attitudes towards education. Additionally, your simplification of the positions is disingenuous: no one is making a universal statement about the tendencies of every last Asian person.

I don't mean to impute a motive on you, but the arguments you make for the equality of these two positions really only serves to elevate the decidedly more specious claim that race is a factor in the academic performance of the two groups of people discussed. Is that what you intend?
posted by invitapriore at 9:17 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

snofoam writes "Oh, and seconding delmoi on his analysis of the earlier corn diet comment. The original corn diet comment was really about as stupid as the thing I quoted about Japanese people eating McDonald's hamburgers and becoming tall and blonde. Let's not blame tacos."

It's not completely without merit to consider a cultural diet staple or exposure explaining the difference. The way lead in wine and other foodstuffs via sapa is debated to have had an observable effect on the behaviour of Romans and possibly a contributing cause to the decline of the empire.
posted by Mitheral at 9:21 PM on July 23

I guess porpoise and I hang out with the same crowd. I, too, have met my share of no-account Asians, male and female, and I've know a few from perfectly good middling class families who did not fit the good nerdling mold or even stay in high school.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:26 PM on July 23

I don't think any one is disputing that not all Asian people perform exceptionally in school. The point of interest is the elevated scores of Asian students averaged across the number of them attending school, as compared in this case to Latinos.
posted by invitapriore at 9:28 PM on July 23

Then these poor kids with excellent work ethic and grades in well paying, steady, technical prestigious jobs grow up and wonder why they can't break into upper management because they never learned how to socialize with everyone else and network( drink/play golf with) their bosses, the salespeople, the marketers etc.

This is the reason why the families of those kids encourage them to go into things like medicine: the amount of shmoozing required to attain relatively high pay and status is much less, and the financial and professional rewards come more from brute force hard work.

You see a lot of families who manage to come to the US and get green cards on the strength of their technical background but guide all their children into professions like medicine.
posted by deanc at 9:33 PM on July 23

There are hoards - hoards - of slacker remedial Asians.

Hordes of them, even. Maybe one of the non-slacker ones can teach you to spell.

ZING!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:36 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

Just to throw this out here: Any genetic theory that explains a minority's comparatively high educational attainment needs to be able to explain why African-Americans do so poorly in school and African Immigrants do so well—better than Asian-American students, statistically. I'm all ears.
posted by Weebot at 7:55 PM on July 23

This is (perhaps unexpectedly) really easy to explain. If these differences were genetic, they'd be a very straightforward example of the founder effect. African-Americans must surely be genetically distinct from Africans; a tiny subset of them came over on those slave ships.
posted by Jpfed at 9:36 PM on July 23

So, what I got from this is a better understanding of why Asians do better at school.

It's because they're Jewish.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:41 PM on July 23 [7 favorites]

K.A.C.: It's true of South Asian society - I'm Bangladeshi and education is a HUUUUUUUUGE thing. In Malaysia the ethnic Malays prize it as well.

You have to remember that Hinduism and Buddhism, including local associated philosophies, travelled far and wide - South-East Asia was a big trading area and had traders from everywhere. The people stayed, and so did the attitudes. Malaysia's multicultural and yet the "education trumps all" mentality is prevalent across the whole country, regardless of race.
posted by divabat at 9:57 PM on July 23

The screwed up history of people trying to twist science to support a race-intelligence correlation is not a reason to discard such theories out of hand. We should be hypervigilant about it, as much as with claims of alchemical transformation of lead into gold, cold fusion, and HIV deniers. But I feel that science isn't about rejecting something because it 'feels' wrong (yes, that is a bit of self referential mockery).

Cool Papa Bell, several organizations out there are collecting the slacker remedial Asians, hence the confusion. I'm kidding, not ~~racist~~ snowboardist.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:58 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

To add on that: in Malaysia you'll see races competing against each other. "We can't let the Chinese win!" "The Malays get everything!" "Nobody remembers the Indians!" (well, nobody remembers the Others but that's a different story). Malaysia is very racially divided despite its multiculturalism so this kind of competition occurs often.
posted by divabat at 10:01 PM on July 23

(I'm a slacker Asian, for what it's worth. Someone upthread mentioned the new generation that's less about straight As and more about self-fulfillment - that's me. Yet I did pretty well at school, which annoyed a lot of hard workers. What can you do, eh.)
posted by divabat at 10:03 PM on July 23

Aside from the grouping of "Asian" being enormous and thus making genetic arguments sort of ludicrous, there is another fatal flaw in the genetic=High IQ argument here. Perhaps those of you asserting that Asians are genetically more intelligent than Latinos are unaware of the fact that about 15-20,000 years ago Latinos were Asians.
posted by anansi at 10:04 PM on July 23

There are hoards - hoards - of slacker remedial Asians.

Hordes of them, even.

Dude, I've been hoarding slacker remedial Asians for years. It's the next economic bubble, and dammit I'm going to be ready.

(Actually, I have a (distant) relative who is basically a remedial Asian, in that although he is about as Asian as George W Bush, he is convinced that he is really secretly Asian, substituted at birth, and if he just studies Asian-y stuff that little bit harder there'll be a big explosion and smoke and everyone will see him as the Asian guy he really is. In the meantime he watches a lot of anime and bad kung fu movies, tries to date Asian-American girls, and is basically a total creep.)
posted by Forktine at 10:04 PM on July 23

Malaysia's multicultural and yet the "education trumps all" mentality is prevalent across the whole country, regardless of race.

Really? Even amongst the tribes of Borneo?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 10:07 PM on July 23

Perhaps those of you asserting that Asians are genetically more intelligent than Latinos are unaware of the fact that about 15-20,000 years ago Latinos were Asians.

That's where the hoards/hordes of slacker Asians were hidden: Latin America. Who knew?

1. Send slackers to New World.
2. Subvert US from within using corn to fuel stupidity machines on the internet.
3. World domination!
posted by Forktine at 10:07 PM on July 23 [2 favorites]

Reading this thread feels like being punched in the stomach. I'm 2nd generation Mexican/Filipino on both sides. I just had a discussion with two friends of white/Mexican and Mexican heritage. We were all born in the USA.

We came to no conclusion on Asian/Latino disparities except that the whole situation is really complicated and can't be reduced to generalizations. We mainly discussed the generalization that Latinos do poorly in academics. There's so much to consider that you've got to pick one factor to discuss and maybe you'll get somewhere. They range from attitudes towards education and work, intra and inter cultural attitudes, the role of the parents, gender roles, religion. Basically everything but genetics. I'm not sure you white people out on Metafilter are aware of this, but the "Latino" population has a high level of recent admixture that includes European, Amerindian, and Black ethnic groups. Certainly Asian populations aren't uniform either.

Don't worry Metafilter. There are members of our little racial classification that are well aware of the problems that we face. We know of the apathy towards education that parents have, the crushing self-inflicted assertion that education is not worth it because "you'll just end up in the fields anyway." And every day we face and work to break down the stereotypes from outside that tell us that we will amount to nothing.

The article, however, highlights what I find very worrisome: unless there is discussion taking place between the groups involved, people within the groups won't be aware of the reasons why academic disparities exist. How many Latinos or Asians accept their performance in the world of education because that's just the way it is and no one questions it? The Blue... hell, we'll just go ahead and say the majority White-American racial group can talk and talk and taaaaaaalk all they want. It will amount to nothing unless there's dialog between all parties involved.
posted by Mister Cheese at 10:08 PM on July 23 [16 favorites]

Actually, I think socialize is the wrong word, what is also missing is rhetoric and the ability to give presentations and communicate and persuade in non-official capacities. The head down, nose to the grindstone only works to a certain extent.

As I understand it, the entire process of qualifying for Medical degrees here was changed specifically to get around this problem of academic achievers who either couldn't communicate effectively with patients, or who had little to no interest in medicine beyond making money or satisfying some kind of family pressure or social status ambition.

These days, there are a lot more interviews to see if students really are suited to becoming doctors, and a greater emphasis on language & communication skills than the previous model, which was more about rote learning enormous quantities of factoids.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:17 PM on July 23

The screwed up history of people trying to twist science to support a race-intelligence correlation is not a reason to discard such theories out of hand.

The reason to discard theories of race-intelligence out of hand is that there is ZERO scientific evidence that they are true, while there are mountains of evidence that culture plays a huge role in IQ.
posted by afu at 10:19 PM on July 23

Really? Even amongst the tribes of Borneo?

Ooh, you have no idea how contentious that question actually is for Malaysians. There's already enough controversy about whether their "bumiputra" ("natives of the land"; it gives you certain privileges) status is respected by the ethnic Malays that are also "bumiputra", or whether some people think they are really Malay or Chinese or some weird mix. (as I mentioned before, if you're not neatly Malay/Chinese/Indian you really fall into a black hole with many institutionalised and social things.)

I have friends who are (at least part) indigenous Borneo and they've mentioned such struggles. It's all really complicated. (And then there's the Orang Asli in the Peninsula that, while really the true natives of the land, don't get any sort of protection or help. They're lucky if they get to school.)

The indigenous in Borneo are quite a substantial chunk of society, and Sabah & Sarawak (the Malaysian parts of Borneo - Borneo is NOT a country, people) are quite modernized, at least up to par with many Peninsular states. It's very likely that those that are part of the modern school system are sucked into the "get all As" thing too. I'll ask, though; their experience can be quite interesting. I can't tell from your questions, but it sounds like you're assuming they're all village people who live in huts in the jungle somewhere.
posted by divabat at 10:22 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

This is the reason why the families of those kids encourage them to go into things like medicine: the amount of shmoozing required to attain relatively high pay and status is much less, and the financial and professional rewards come more from brute force hard work.

That seems a little mercenary, if they knew it was going to be a problem, wouldn't it make more sense to try to teach their kids the importance of networking and shmoozing?

The screwed up history of people trying to twist science to support a race-intelligence correlation is not a reason to discard such theories out of hand.

Um, yes it is. This isn't like evolution denial; it's more like global warming denial or HIV stuff. It goes a lot farther then simply having people wonder around with wrong information, into an issue where it causes real harm, at lest in the past. But unlike the HIV and intelligent design, this was the dominant mode of thinking for centuries. You can go back just a few decades and find 'real research' by 'real racists', and then that same research gets churned up again and again by people who keep claiming to be courageously representing "the science."

I mean, if some crank were to dig up old nazi research showing how Jews really were greedy or something, they'd be dismissed out of hand as a nazi and an anti-Semite. I believe that is also the correct response to people who bring up innate genetic racial inferiority.

Ultimately science is about answering interesting questions, but why would the question of race and innate genetic intelligence be interesting to people who are not racists?

Furthermore, it does not even appear possible to measure, given the different education levels received by people in different races, cultures, and ethnic groups. An experiment would have to take place outside of society, which is obviously never going to happen.
posted by delmoi at 10:40 PM on July 23 [4 favorites]

The reason to discard theories of race-intelligence out of hand is that there is ZERO scientific evidence that they are true, while there are mountains of evidence that culture plays a huge role in IQ.

No, that is a reason to refute said theories. Are arguments from authority really going to help the situation?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:45 PM on July 23

A smart and funny woman of Puerto Rican heritage with whom I work once related that her husband had chided her for saying that the snow was starting to "accumulate". It was too fancy a word, who did she think she was, stop acting white, etc. (she soon after caught him cheating on her and divorced him.)
posted by longsleeves at 10:50 PM on July 23

Intelligence as a general concept is almost impossible to measure, and I'd argue that most attempts to do so are soft science at best. I'd think (talking out my ass here) that measuring a subset of intelligence like spatial awareness or mechanical inclination might be do-able, and if it were strongly correlated with a particular set of genes that might be useful information (leaving race off the table for a moment). Admittedly, the uses to which such information would be put are almost all bad (GATTACA was cheesy, but the underlying fears are correct).

There is a reason I mentioned alchemy, cold fusion, and HIV deniers in the same paragraph as race-intelligence correlation.

Also, do you really think that a cultural-intelligence correlation can't be put to equally bad uses as a race-intelligence one?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:52 PM on July 23

I'm on the lawn of the capitol building at a Willie Nelson concert in the mid 90s, ran into a friend, who introduced me to her new friend, an English guy, lived most his life in London and London is where he lived when I met him, traveled to Austin on music related activities once or twice a year. A cool guy, a good guy, plus he talked funny, and we got on, and became good friends, over the years.

One afternoon, out of his mouth, and out of nowhere, came a racist spiel as stupid and hateful and rabid as any I've ever heard here in the states -- I'm white, blue-collar heritage, from the very racially segregated Chicago area, I've lived in Florida and Texas, traveled in the south some, married a woman from Arkansas once, etc and etc -- and that rant filled with the exact same complaints and accusations and blame and shaming as any racist rant I've ever heard. "These people" are thieves, they're stupid, they're impossibly dishonest, and lazy, they will never rise above any of this because they are all scum, it's in their genes. On and on. He really got wound up, his blood running hot.

I was shocked. Amazed. Sortof appalled. And very, very amused.

Why amused? Because it wasn't black people he aimed this at.

Irish. It's the Irish that are "these people" who are thieving and stupid and dishonest and lazy; they are scum, and always they will be scum.

And I've Irish blood running my veins, and Scottish, and lots of other stuff by way of Dear Sweet Mom, even some Blackfoot Indian -- my maternal ancestors came over the pond from Scotland long ago and caroused about in the American fashion of the times.

So my buddy is talking about me, but, more than that, and the point of this post, he's talking in a remarkably racist fashion about a subset of people in his society the exact same way any racist here would do it (except he talked funny). And in America of course Irish is just swell, nowadays, they had their time of being down -- Irish Need Not Apply, that whole thing -- but they've moved into cultural American suburbia, or something.

I learned, that afternoon -- and not head learning, either, not from some book or class but rather through direct human experience -- I learned that culture is where it's at.

It seems to me, now, my eyes open, that humans need to have societal scapegoats, and hierarchies, sometimes untouchables. Or at the very least any or all of that is possible in any social system. And all of the human beings involved in this whole messy affair seem to know 'the rules' and act in accordance. So to me it is culture that determines all of this, and not genetics, though color is surely involved, makes it more difficult to get into suburbia maybe, probably.

The Way Out? Education. Or so it seems to me. Break out of the strata through books and common experience with those already in the suburbs. I've a buddy, a black guy, super-cool, plays violin at a very high level, he can do it in concert with any band or in classical settings, and while he did fall into the street in his late teens, and crackhead thuggery jive, he was able to get back out, he had an exit strategy laid out by his destiny -- his parents had both broken out and gave him everything they could. He's moved, now, he's in Florida, through mutual friends I know he's been in some kind of sales gig but doesn't like it and he's going to go back to school for something else. His older brother fell and is not going to get out, he liked to play with guns, he's in prison, it's a done deal, so it's slippery, but it appears that it's doable if you hold your hand just so, and get lucky.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:52 PM on July 23 [10 favorites]

I can't tell from your questions, but it sounds like you're assuming they're all village people who live in huts in the jungle somewhere.

Well, I was thinking of the villagers in the jungle, but I wasn't assuming that they all live that way. My point being that the indigenous tribes people who do live in the villages of the jungles are also "Asian" but don't fit the education-mad stereotype -- there are huge differences amongst the ethnicities and cultures of Asia, as of course you know, and not all Asian cultures prize schooling.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 10:55 PM on July 23

Is there a better book out there now than Mismeasure of Man for reading up on this stuff?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:56 PM on July 23

K.A.C. - Here's a response from one of my friends who is half Malay, half indigenous from Borneo (don't know what tribe tho):

IMO, it's rather more complicated than "simply" ethnicity or culture -- class, urbanity and other factors play into it, as well as what one defines as "education". My father received a scholarship and worked his way from being a farmer's son (albeit a privileged one due to my grandfather's status) to a comfortable petit-bourgeoisie city life by the time I finished primary school. He was a qualified lawyer and saw formal education (note "formal") as the key to a better life for me and my siblings. Of course I got caught up in the rat race. I *cried* over my *UPSR*[primary school exam] results cos they weren't up to mark. With my mother, it was a matter of family tradition and a religious upbringing -- she was taught that Islam exhorts its followers to gain knowledge, and so educated I must be.

Incidentally, my mother grew up in a small town as part of a large, respectable family.

posted by divabat at 10:57 PM on July 23

Ultimately science is about answering interesting questions, but why would the question of race and innate genetic intelligence be interesting to people who are not racists?

Because they're curious about the universe they live in?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 10:57 PM on July 23

Kraftmatic, like Hmong?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:58 PM on July 23

delmoi: Wow. That was just about one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Out of all the comments, that was the one you chose to criticize. Wow.
posted by sluglicker at 10:59 PM on July 23

Because they're curious about the universe they live in?

There is a nearly infinite number of possible correlations between different data sets. Why would the correlation between race and inborn intelligence be more curiosity piquing then the correlation between consumption of carrots and choice in literature? or hair color and laughter, or the size of someone's nose and the size of their hands? That stuff isn't interesting and so no one looks into it.

Look, if someone wanted to make a serious study about whether Jews were inherently greedy, everyone would consider them an anti-Semite, right? Or would you say that it's possible that person was just 'curious about the universe they live in'?
posted by delmoi at 11:12 PM on July 23 [1 favorite]

Out of all the comments, that was the one you chose to criticize. Wow.

You mean out of the first five? Um, yeah...
posted by delmoi at 11:12 PM on July 23

an English guy, lived most his life in London [...] out of his mouth, and out of nowhere, came a racist spiel as stupid and hateful and rabid as any I've ever heard here in the states

Typical bloody Pom - always whingeing about one thing or another.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:20 PM on July 23

No, I mean out of the first 64.
posted by sluglicker at 11:21 PM on July 23

Look, if someone wanted to make a serious study about whether Jews were inherently greedy, everyone would consider them an anti-Semite, right?

Of course, because there's no plausible link between biology and greed. But there is between intelligence and biology, as evidenced by how diet affected the Romans, mentioned upthread. I personally don't believe intelligence is based on genetics, but I can see how scientists would think it merits research.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 11:38 PM on July 23

Completely anecdotal,

Carlos Is an Asian at Heart July 23, 2008 5:58 PM Subscribe

Carlos Is an Asian at Heart
July 23, 2008 5:58 PM Subscribe